Numbers.

Raiden
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Raiden »

Thank you Ashley for bringing some maturity in. Obviously the points are subjective. "I find this subjective and not at all constructive to the current discussion. Instead of working against admins approach them in a constructive way and tell them where you feel they are lacking." Might've said it in a different way, but I am not the one to coat things in sugar. Some tried to talk with the admins I have in mind and they definetly didn't listen and had a worse opinion on that person. I would've come back but with this much hatered pointed towards me and who else, it's going to never happen to be honest. Those were some subjective points, take them or not, but think, if they are there, some truth must be in them. I harbor no hard feelings for anyone to be honest, not even fish boy here. If someone doesn't like honest points, well, just lock this thread.
ashley
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Re: Numbers.

Post by ashley »

The point I was making was you saying Stacey was the best admin, that is a completely subjective point that doesn't need to be in your post. Obviously 99% of your post has to be subjective as it is your opinion which forms your suggestions.

There is a diffence between sugar coating things and just calling something out for the sake of calling it out. I am not one for sugar coating either, if I think you are a cunt, I'll tell you that you are a cunt but I'll also say why so you know where you are going wrong (not actually calling you a cunt here, just an example). Be constructive.

I don't think there is hatred pointed towards you, I think it is more frustration at how you worded your post and some of your points (especially the 45 min briefing point and the "rotten apples") are months old. I think its also frustration at you saying what is wrong with the community without actually being as active as some of the people that commented as well (I may be wrong here but I don't recall seeing you on a game night or on the servers in a while).

Take daves post for example, if you worded it like that, with what you think the problem is and then say how you think it can be fixed I think you'll find people will have a proper discussion like we are having now. It seemed like and attack rather than anything constructive.

So maybe try and word it a little better so I can take some notes from it?
Kenny
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Kenny »

Raiden wrote: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:30 pm Thank you Ashley for bringing some maturity in. Obviously the points are subjective. "I find this subjective and not at all constructive to the current discussion. Instead of working against admins approach them in a constructive way and tell them where you feel they are lacking." Might've said it in a different way, but I am not the one to coat things in sugar. Some tried to talk with the admins I have in mind and they definetly didn't listen and had a worse opinion on that person. I would've come back but with this much hatered pointed towards me and who else, it's going to never happen to be honest. Those were some subjective points, take them or not, but think, if they are there, some truth must be in them. I harbor no hard feelings for anyone to be honest, not even fish boy here. If someone doesn't like honest points, well, just lock this thread.
Hello Raiden, I've had a quick look through, and at first glance I have to say that it looks like this: You and, the other guy[EDIT: Viper 1-2] want to turn the zeus community into something that it is not.

Logging into the zeus community TS and going: "Hey, I think it would be awesome if you did 'X'" to the nearest admin won't bring any immediate response, as it shouldn't. There are many members in the community who would love to have their own opinion heard on it first. But i understand you have that covered? As far as I can extrapolate from your posts, it would appear you have other people of similar mind who would like thing 'X' to happen. But it was all shut down because the majority decided it wasn't healthy for the community.

Lastly, I find it strange that someone who claims to have stopped playing on the server for several months can bring these old issues up, which half of them have been largely resolved by some strange exodus of several players.

Please don't misunderstand my post as something it is not, I believe, sincerely, that there is something to be learned in my analogy above. Don't try to deform the community into what you like, if it would go against what is established and has worked and been enjoyable for many, many others for years before you ever thought of joining the community.
TurokGMT
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Re: Numbers.

Post by TurokGMT »

Going back to the original topic of player count:

having returned myself after a long period of absence, yes I agree that the server numbers have been significantly lower over the summer period than compared to what seemed like a much busier summer last year. Obviously there are several factors that have fed into this including timing of steam sales, the aforementioned exodus of a large group of the server 2 players and all kinds of irl issues I'm sure.

That said, I'm still seeing new players on server 1 almost every time I've been on and as a game admin, I know I've been doing my part to promote both the forums and FMT training. My question would be to ask yourselves, as community members, how do you want your community to be perceived? When active on these forums, are you championing our style of gameplay and commenting on events and gamesnights, or adding to nay saying threads and adding your own criticism about what you'd like to be happening?

All constructive feedback will always be welcome, but I'd echo Ashley's point - if you're just here for a public whinge or to keep the drama mill going, it's no use to anyone.

For those of you who say that you do still care about the community and want your opinion to be known, do please show up to the community meetings which are announced at the top of the forum and show up on the servers! Be the change you want to see!

/rant
Terox
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Terox »

@ Raiden
If you have found a server that is more apt to your play style and mentality, good for you, I hope you enjoy many hours of ArmA there.
Your opinion of a good admin is yours to exercise if and when you ever find the motivation and capability to run your own gaming community.
Bare in mind nobody is perfect, we all have flaws.
In some cases, individuals can be nurtured into decent community members, I have seen many long term members change from an arrogant foolhardy adolescent into a decent person and valuable asset.
I have no issues with Stacey, as far as I know we are still on good terms, he has simply found a new home and I hope he finds it fruitful.

As for the server numbers, please don't be disappointed when I tell you this is nothing new, been here many times before. This has little to do with what you think and is simply a normal cycle. Only your lack of experience would lead you to that opinion.
I actually see this as a positive thing, it has saved a lot of effort in what would have been a culling exercise. Quality over quantity every time
At the end of the day if you don't want to be here, then don't be. Your starting to sound like a lost soul.
Raiden
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Raiden »

Terox wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:06 pm @ Raiden
If you have found a server that is more apt to your play style and mentality, good for you, I hope you enjoy many hours of ArmA there.
Your opinion of a good admin is yours to exercise if and when you ever find the motivation and capability to run your own gaming community.
Bare in mind nobody is perfect, we all have flaws.
In some cases, individuals can be nurtured into decent community members, I have seen many long term members change from an arrogant foolhardy adolescent into a decent person and valuable asset.
I have no issues with Stacey, as far as I know we are still on good terms, he has simply found a new home and I hope he finds it fruitful.

As for the server numbers, please don't be disappointed when I tell you this is nothing new, been here many times before. This has little to do with what you think and is simply a normal cycle. Only your lack of experience would lead you to that opinion.
I actually see this as a positive thing, it has saved a lot of effort in what would have been a culling exercise. Quality over quantity every time
At the end of the day if you don't want to be here, then don't be. Your starting to sound like a lost soul.
Mate, you speak as I never was in your position. I was part of a 3500+ member gaming community and I was a part of the staff. What I said is deffinetly from a 2 year experience with a lot more members and gaming divisions, I know what I am saying..
You have no idea what happens if admins don't do the right thing when they are supposed to do.. And from my experience in Zeus, a experience I enjoyed for the most part, I can tell you, you don't listen to the community, it will find another place. Ofc this has nothing to do with the place I am in right now, I did care at one point for Zeus but that stopped the moment I saw those things happening... Actually listening the people is why some communities are thriving.. I obviously don't know what's going on nowadays, but if this issue was brought up by Cobra just now, it's cleary a huge problem on some people's part.
Cobra.
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Cobra. »

Raiden wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:34 pm
Terox wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:06 pm @ Raiden
If you have found a server that is more apt to your play style and mentality, good for you, I hope you enjoy many hours of ArmA there.
Your opinion of a good admin is yours to exercise if and when you ever find the motivation and capability to run your own gaming community.
Bare in mind nobody is perfect, we all have flaws.
In some cases, individuals can be nurtured into decent community members, I have seen many long term members change from an arrogant foolhardy adolescent into a decent person and valuable asset.
I have no issues with Stacey, as far as I know we are still on good terms, he has simply found a new home and I hope he finds it fruitful.

As for the server numbers, please don't be disappointed when I tell you this is nothing new, been here many times before. This has little to do with what you think and is simply a normal cycle. Only your lack of experience would lead you to that opinion.
I actually see this as a positive thing, it has saved a lot of effort in what would have been a culling exercise. Quality over quantity every time
At the end of the day if you don't want to be here, then don't be. Your starting to sound like a lost soul.
Ofc this has nothing to do with the place I am in right now, I did care at one point for Zeus but that stopped the moment I saw those things happening...
Then why are you still talking? If you don't care stop antagonising, if you do then provide constructive advice and help rather than attacking our admin team.
Last edited by Cobra. on Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[3:33 PM] BOTMEE6: Hey @Cobra! Please don't use bad words!
[3:33 PM] BOTMEE6: Hey, sorry about this but... you got banned from Zeus by MEE6#4876 for 'Too many infractions..'

please do not swear on my christian youth server.
Tom
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Tom »

We have indeed been here before. It's a shame, but that's the way it is :)

The drama put on listening to people is just that. Drama...
There are people with complaints, there are people listening, but this is a side gig. It's a hobby.
At the end of the day, we all just want to have fun. I don't know why Stacey felt he had to leave, but I'm assuming the hobby part felt like a job and he missed the fun. Not because the community is in shambles or because there are shady admins holding illuminati meetings.


Zeus is playing the long game here.
Patrol ops 4
Decent amount of admin numbers, strong base.
Community meetings
Information in the forum about those and closed admin meetings.

People will return, new people will arrive.
I'm so deep.

-Hammer-
ashley
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Re: Numbers.

Post by ashley »

Raiden wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:34 pm Mate, you speak as I never was in your position. I was part of a 3500+ member gaming community and I was a part of the staff. What I said is deffinetly from a 2 year experience with a lot more members and gaming divisions, I know what I am saying..
You have no idea what happens if admins don't do the right thing when they are supposed to do.. And from my experience in Zeus, a experience I enjoyed for the most part, I can tell you, you don't listen to the community, it will find another place. Ofc this has nothing to do with the place I am in right now, I did care at one point for Zeus but that stopped the moment I saw those things happening... Actually listening the people is why some communities are thriving.. I obviously don't know what's going on nowadays, but if this issue was brought up by Cobra just now, it's cleary a huge problem on some people's part.
Terox has run this community for 15 years (pretty sure its 15) extremely effectively so I trust that he will step in if the community is ever in a dire situation and I trust in his experience and knowledge of how communities work, time and time again he has shown everyone that says "the community is dying" how wrong they are. Sure numbers are low but they will pick back up again. With suggestions from the community we can help the process along, thats what we need, suggestions, not stories about 3500 member communities. So if you have all this experience, then please use it and tell us, as I said before, constructively and with proper points rather than attacking people.

I have tried to help you and give you ways to better word your posts but you are just not listening ( funny cos you said admins don't listen but now you are not listening :D ). So either be constructive here and help or please leave the conversation.
Cobra. wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:52 pm Then why are you still talking? If you don't care fuck off, if you do then stop being a cunt and provide constructive advice and help rather than attacking our admin team.
Careful with your language, no personal attacks or insults as I said before. As I said to Raiden, if you cannot provide anything constructive then leave the conversation so it can stay on topic.
Tom wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:56 pm Zeus is playing the long game here.
Patrol ops 4
Decent amount of admin numbers, strong base.
Community meetings
Information in the forum about those and closed admin meetings.
Yes, this is how I see it also, we have been in need of a new seeder mission for server 1 and PO4 is perfect for that. We have enough very competant admins to share the workload of everything that needs to be done. Community meetings have given us a lot of feedback and people have been able to air their issues. The way everything is being run now is fine, with a few tweaks ofcourse to streamline and make everything more efficient. We just need more suggestions from the community, not the contest that is going on in this thread.
Terox
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Terox »

@Raiden, this will be my last post spent on you, I have better things to do......
3500 members, I absolutely wouldn't like that, that's not a gaming community, that's a business pretending to be something else.
I'm not here for commercial gain nor is anyone else that helps to run this community.
2 years as a "staff" member (whatever that is) does not compare to 14 years of running this community (As a hobby in my own time).

So, some personal things for you to reflect on
Actively trying to recruit players for your new found community is a bannable offence (Investigation still pending). Advice is never to burn your bridges, you never know when you may want to cross back over it. (Fortunately for you at the moment, we always require proof before we implement any disciplinary actions, this is the only reason you still have access to our services.

In all the time you have actually been here Raiden, what have you actually done that is positive and productive ?
(I see a lot of negativity, bandwagon jumping and flaming, I have yet to see anything else that would suggest your moving on was anything but good for us).
Just because you voice a concern to an admin doesn't mean your opinion will be upheld. The community isn't about you, its about all of us.(In the real world, you don't always get what you want)

Its pretty obvious there is a bitter taste in your mouth, please swill it out if you wish to continue using our services and stop trying to wreck Cobra's thread. (Final warning)
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Snowman
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Snowman »

OK, so.. bringing this back on track to the original point being made.

Server numbers: Generally down but expected for the time of year. Please do not take the short response as glib or lip service to the issue. We are aware of this seasonal decline, as I at least have been of this cycle for the last 4 years. Recent game nights have shown a marked increase along with the recent special events. Encouraging that the player base is still there but perhaps eager for new content or favoring the summer months over sitting inside on a PC. The new content aspect I will cover later.
I have also heard said many a time by people that this is a seasonal phenomena and that it will pass. I beg to differ and suggest you take you head out of the ground and look at the chain of events that have lead to this dwindling player base. Just after the Unsung special we were reaching player counts into the 60s, then a couple of months later certain HR choices were made and somebody left the community (of their own accord which is their right), they also took the daytime player base of at least server 2 with them. This has caused a huge gap of players (for better or for worse) meaning we cannot do what people want creating a positive feedback cycle draining our player base.
HR choices is not quite the appropriate term here. Admins are players that I/we have recruited to help make the servers a better environment for those seeking a milsim (albeit casual) environment with structure and organisation. We are still players at the end of the day and none of us are exempt from the rules. It's not right for an admin to comment on any individual issues other than with that specific individual(s) but I will just summarize with the fact that actions have consequences. The fact that this person left and some others followed does not really bother me to be perfectly honest. If they wanted something other than Zeus provides then fine, I wish them luck. But please remember.. we will not arbitrarily introduce new content that requires dev, technician and admin work to deliver without some decent work being put in by those suggesting the content as to what it provides (above what we have already) and how it enhances our approach to arma 3 milsim. We are playing the long-game as someone mentioned but we are also mindful of the workload it creates on people who are just here to play, who aren't paid for their time and who just want to see the community develop in the right way. This can be a slow and protracted process which can lead to some player frustration, especially when those players do not see the bigger picture of what is involved.
Along with server downtime and password locks on S1 have also caused demographical issues.
Server downtime has been minimal this year. In order to provide the 'exclusive beta development' test of PO4 we had to place the mission behind a password. Unfortunate, but required. In order to provide this new content, and provide us a unique opportunity to help shape it we made this password as ..easy to guess.. as possible. Those that have played here a while will know this. The teamspeak address is also included in the server listing name for those interested and new. Whilst we wait for the next test the password has been removed.
Another issue is it seems that people are just not interested in playing S2/S1 anymore, I know that has always been the case but the numbers of people whom are not interested are increasing. Possibly due to the lack of players or for other reasons.
It has been stated at admin meetings (you can check the minutes posted in forum after every meeting) that we do not do enough to take advantage of free weekends and dlc launches etc. This has been noted and work has been made to try improve this situation. Prepping enough missions in time for the rollout and first game night is the current bottleneck with new content. The free weekends is just a question of having enough admins available to help police and advise new to arma players. More work than I expect any of you realise. Keeping the fresh blood coming in is as important as providing a consistently solid environment for people to play in. Please remember, Arma 3 is over 4 years old and for us to maintain the player base and good environment we have had over these years is impressive and I for one am proud to have helped in that. The fact that most of the current admin team have been here for a significant period of this is also encouraging. Players come and go, and comeback, mostly because of the community, the environment and the way we play rather than just the game they play. Interests always wax and wain with the arrival of new games, interests, hobbies, RL influences etc. But we remain and aim to do so in the future.
Throughout the last two community meetings (the most recent had shocking numbers and at the start nearly had more admins than members.) There has been no mention of this and it feels like the admin team is in denial of our situation (Not meaning any bad feelings from saying this.). There has been no official message from the Administration team on our situation.
I think someone did bring this up at a community meeting (I may have to check the minutes) and the answer given was along the lines of the above point. Any issue brought to our attention in a appropriate, constructive way will be addressed. We don't dismiss anything out of hand unless brought up in a haphazard, parting comment kind of way.
I do not know how to fix this issue however I know that it should be brought up because this has been going on long enough with people leaving due to low numbers. It is affecting game play quality when ever single mission we do is massively understaffed and is becoming a joke frankly.
An issue also brought up recently which we are working towards fixing. Introducing smaller player count missions has been asked of the mission devs. This does take a little time to produce as everyone has difference amounts of time of which they can contribute towards developing new missions and content. Also, new seeder missions are in development. Please remember, quality beats quantity every time. I'd rather see smaller groups working well and enjoying smaller missions than large numbers not fully working with each other which is a common situation.
This first step on solving a problem is realising there is one.
I appreciate the comments. We will always do our best to meet players expectations as long as they are inline with the community development as a whole, but please do not assume we do not listen, or care, to the player base.
Cobra.
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Cobra. »

Thank you for the response! Just wanted to bring some light and get some clear response to the issue.
[3:33 PM] BOTMEE6: Hey @Cobra! Please don't use bad words!
[3:33 PM] BOTMEE6: Hey, sorry about this but... you got banned from Zeus by MEE6#4876 for 'Too many infractions..'

please do not swear on my christian youth server.
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Snowman
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Snowman »

Additional point:

With respect to training sessions:

There has been a decrease in numbers applying for the training which in turn means it can take longer to organise a session that imparts squad centric lessons because these sessions (chiefly parts 2 and 3) require a decent size squad to operate. The main cause of this is I think due to the fact we have currently 204 people having completed or part completed the FMTs, so less people 'needing' to take it.

In the last few months I have personally organised 6 sessions. 3 of these, even though people signed up on the forums, did not have enough attendees to run. For 2 of them, no one showed even through had enough signups. The most recent session 1 had a full squad which is encouraging, so we will continue to organise sessions once there are enough signups on the forum.

Let me clarify my point. The sessions are available and useful, but it requires players to actually show up. For those that do signup and show we aim to get you through the sessions as quickly as possible. So, it's not because the sessions aren't available, but rather have a minimum requirement of players in order to run. Annoying situation, but there it is.
Kyoptic
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Re: Numbers.

Post by Kyoptic »

We've been this low before, it happens, groups stop playing, eventually new ones form.

ACRE took a long time to bug test but now it's finally out, testing for other mods and new content can begin. New content, new interest, more people come back, voila.

I've already seen a couple of new faces (to me) on S2 since I came back, and I've only been away for a couple of months, tops. Yesterday there were around 15 testing a mission, and though I can't say if that's reflective of the norm or not lately, it's certainly pretty average for a Monday evening.
Making the world a better place, by shooting people in the face.
OneNanArmy
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Re: Numbers.

Post by OneNanArmy »

To start I would like to apologies if this post makes little to no sense but here goes.

I have only been apart of this community for 3 - 2 years and I would like to just take this chance to thank everyone who I have encountered on here for the many hours of enjoyment I have had.
Regarding the dwindling numbers, I too am reasonably concerned as I have found that this period of low numbers has gone longer that I expected which has lead to me wanting to actively help in trying to boost the numbers. But am put a ease by the more experienced members of the community who have seen things like this before. Maybe the numbers pick up because members of the community try to help more when numbers are low then relax and do less when the server has players, I'm sure the staff team would appreciate all the help all the time but hay ho.

I would also like to thank Turok for helping increase the amount of players on server 1 but just playing and moderation. I personal have said that if you play they will come. I think the last couple of days have some what proved my point (granted this is a very small sample size) server one have see 15 - 20 players on from about 6pm to 9pm. With that it has also brought some new players. The reason for this, I believe is because a lot of people fined the server through Arma's server list. Most people looking for CO-OP servers search by number of players. We are kinda fortunate in the fact that their aren't loads of open mil-sim community out there. But having more people playing on the server pushes us higher up that list and makes it look more inviting. So if you want to help out in the smallest way just join and play be an advert for the community. Who know maybe some of the new guys joining us will end up on server 2. (Just a suggestion as in the sort term this seams to be working).

Regarding the seeder mission and Patrol Ops 4. The current seeder mission (I think it was called a "seeder" mission above somewhere) Patrol Ops 3 and the beauty of it was easy to get going. You could start with low numbers and have fun. If people join the mission would adjust. This is a point I think Dave was getting at and I might just be reiteration at this point is you could play Patrol Ops 3 pretty much by your self as you wait for people to join. As Dave mentions you need to get it to about 10 - 15 before it becomes playable (thanks again Turok for helping bridging the player gap). It didn't use to be like this but the Arma updates have coursed this problem to arise. I also know that a fix is a waste of time so my concern is will Patrol Ops 4 be as easy to get started and play with low numbers? and can we help drive the development so it can be?
Another thing that I think people enjoyed about patrol ops is the ability to commit to an op finish it then leave. I would often see entire squads get changed out Op to Op. Giving people that sort amount of enjoyment for 30 to 60 minutes. I hope again that Patrol Ops 4 can offer the same if not similar thing.

On another note I am glade to see that the serve lock have been removed to allow better access to new players. And am happy with the desiccation to stress test Patrol Ops 4 on a seceded date rather that having it sit there and not be played keeping the server locked.
The PR and development of a community channel is also a good step that Zeus as a hole can benefit from in the long term as well as something I'm looking forward to getting involved in.
Also glade to see community meeting back.
I pleased with the obvious progress made to gather more player. Efforts made allover the community. I also am excited to see development form all corners of Zeus and I happy so see the level of voluntary effort put in by everyone so again thank you.

Thanks for putting up with my incoherent nonsense but on the hole thumbs up!
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